Fwd: [shrimp] Re: RAS

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dallas Weaver deweaver@me.com [shrimp] <shrimp@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, October 27, 2016
Subject: Re: [shrimp] Re: RAS
To: Shrimplist <shrimp@yahoogroups.com>


 

Nelson,  

You need to look deeper into the physics, chemistry and ecologies of "dead zones" before you accept simple minded political analysis.  
With phosphorous being one of the key nutrients in the Gulf hypoxic zone formation, there are two primary sources for this nutrient available.  One being the agricultural and cities addition of nutrients that is very PC and fits environmental activist thinking.  The researchers and activist in the Gulf can point to the source upstream in other states.  However, the other much larger source is the recycling of P from the sediments by bottom trawlers. 
However, when you look at the sinks and recycling of P in the oceans, you note that much of that annual hypoxic zone area is really an area of natural P deposit being formed in the sediments.  Near the surface, with super high productivity you produce a rain of organic material down to the bottom below the thermocline in the spring and that this P containing organic material enters the sediment, bacterially mineralizes releasing soluble P and NH3 in the sediments (as it uses up the DO as a byproduct).   This phosphate reacts with Ca while fluoride diffuses down from the seawater into the sediment precipitating out CaFP compounds.   This is how many phosphate rock deposits (that we now mine) were formed from these net precipitation areas. 
This sedimentation/mineralization mechanism is a very effective sink for P and limits the nutrient cycle for the hypoxic zones.   However, we have the PC, "salt of the earth", hard working shrimp fishermen recycling this P back into he water column with their bottom trawls.   Virtually 100% of he area gets resuspended every year by their activity and this negates the formation of sediments as a mechanism for eliminating excess P and also all the persistent organic pollutants (POP'S like DDT, PCB, PHA"s, etc.): sediments are the oceans waste disposal.    Try and get funding from Sea Grant for research proving that the shrimp trawlers are creating massive ecological shifts by recycling P and POP's on a scale that excessed all other sources by a factor of 10 or more.   Such research would shut down the shrimp trawler industry and that is significant. 
The PC political power of a sector of our society is a function of its past significance, not it present position (huge time delays).   Even though the wild harvest of shrimp in the US is insignificant, their political power remains.   This was clearly shown in the BP blowout when dead turtles were found in large numbers and the press, activists, etc. blamed it all on BP and the lawyers extracted billions of dollars.  However, if you look of the necropsies of these turtles you find majority were drowned by shrimp fishermen (their lungs contained water, mud and shrimp).  We found the bodies dumped by the fishermen while looking for BP impacts. 
I did a set of calculations looking that these mass transport issues, using government data on shrimp trawling in the Gulf area and showed that the flux of P into the water column from bottom trawlers stirring up the sediments was 10 times larger that the Mississippi river.   These were just a little add-on to a study I did years ago looking at the indirect impacts of bottom trawling on suspended solids in the ocean.   It turns out that the resuspension by bottom trawlers is the most significant source of human suspended solids pollution (SS) in the oceans and dominates most natural sources like rivers and storms and all other human sources of SS like industrial outfalls, dredge disposal, sewerage outfalls, etc.   One bottom trawlers puts more SS pollution in the water column per hr than all the river runoff, sewerage disposal, industrial discharges and dredge disposal from all of So. California combined (an area of 20 million people dumping into the ocean).
There is a written part of the document (that doesn't include the P mass transport that became an issue after I finished the report), but there is a spread sheet with all my models for the mass transport and I added a small calculation to show that 10 larger source.  
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10467656/Bottom%20Trawling/Bottom_Trawling%206.doc
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10467656/Bottom Trawling/Bottom_Trawlers_4 update 2012.xlsx
I know it is convent to blame the "usual suspects" (capitalism, corporations, sewerage outfalls, runoff, and other institutions)  without every looking deeply on the role of government bureaucrats behavior supporting the "wild shrimp industry" exploiting the commons.    If the bureaucrats closed down the bottom trawlers, those bureaucrats would also loose their jobs and that wouldn't be acceptable.   If bureaucrats expand their control over something innovative like UBER, they get to keep their jobs regulating taxi cab.    
Looking at your link to climate change, i see the same sort of thin thinking with no quantification that is either wrong or misleading.  Starting with an assumption of no wind or mixing changes and concluding that water temperature increase would be more than a minor impact is not putting any number on anything.  We know about Q10 temperature effects (not big at 2ºC relative to nutrient changes that are often factors of 2 or more), but under eutrophic conditions algae growth rates are light limited (light penetration), not temperature or nutrient limited. 
We are not seeing global temperature increases at the rates predicted because a minor change in trade winds can increase mixing in the ocean can bury that 4 Watts/M2 extra energy from greenhouse effects in a 1000 meter deep water column, while changing the average water temperature a near unmeasurable amount (put in the heat capacity of the ocean and the amount of heat it can store dwarfs all the annual CO2 extra heat inputs, which means we need better ocean models to get any handle on climate change on anything less than a multi-decade to century time scale  basis — heat capacity slows responses, doesn't eliminate the issue).  
As long as we keep allowing "junk" pseudoscience that says what we want to hear to pass as real understanding, humanity will loose.  
Dallas






On Oct 26, 2016, at 10:36 AM, nelson gerundo nelsongerundo@yahoo.com [shrimp] <shrimp@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

If we add fertiliser runoff from agricultural land (not to mention pesticides) in addition to animal manure runoff from livestocks and poultry farms, and filthy human waste extract containing fecal bacteria and dissolved nutrients going into sewage while continuously flowing downstream.. we will eventually create a 'Dead Zone'

NOAA: Huge Ocean Dead Zone in Gulf of Mexico (August 2013)

<https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/proxy/AVvXsEjGh5xK4A21cil7iiNWsPhBCY2Mb6VIJYv136F0ypAsI5WwMBdjdCKJJvi3wNXoTyaACj811w66WOL_dAF4xmHEeRTMzsOQc16AvTx2q_c-wDZbj3Hesvx3NJZpXZwreijsPBHgZGrhdaMkJyx6BJB4CJPLTVMn6Elbta4g0xiE2dc=s0-d-e1-ft>

NOAA: Huge Ocean Dead Zone in Gulf of Mexico (August 2013)

Follow ClimateState https://facebook.com/ClimateState August 1, 2013 - The Weather Channel host Matt Sampson dis...

Coastal aquatic environmental dead zone will come and go, recurring seasonally and sometimes persistently, in certain geographic locations everywhere in the world.. 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ocean-dead-zones-are-getting-worse-globally-due-climate-change-180953282/ (Zarah Zielinski, 2014)


As human activities on earth continue to increase with increasing population in each passing of year.. dead zones will also continue to increase, both in location, magnitude and frequency.. 
There are now more than 400 dead zones all over planet earth.. 

Nelson
________________________________
nelson gerundo nelsongerundo@yahoo.com <shrimpy@yahoogroups.com>
To shrimp@yahoogroups.com

Also, on the stinking juice extract contamination of natural bodies of water by sewage from humans, who produce 290 billion kg of feces every year with the addition of 1.98 billion liters of urine (Jeffrey Kluger, 2015), enteric bacteria such as Escherichia coli contained in sewer liquid do not survive long in seawater and usually are just rendered as VBNC (viable but nonculturable) especially in seawater challenged by salinity, nutrient availability, pH, temperature, light radiation etc.. besides fish love the oozing filthy particulate mixtures..

Delray Outfall Sewage Stopped

<https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/proxy/AVvXsEjGh5xK4A21cil7iiNWsPhBCY2Mb6VIJYv136F0ypAsI5WwMBdjdCKJJvi3wNXoTyaACj811w66WOL_dAF4xmHEeRTMzsOQc16AvTx2q_c-wDZbj3Hesvx3NJZpXZwreijsPBHgZGrhdaMkJyx6BJB4CJPLTVMn6Elbta4g0xiE2dc=s0-d-e1-ft>

Delray Outfall Sewage Stopped

For 45 years, 14 million-gallons-a-day of partially treated sewage was discharged one mile offshore of Delray Be...

Even in freshwater E. coli are merely rendered as VBNC..

Indianapolis - City Water Sewage Contaminating River - Pt. 2

<https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/proxy/AVvXsEjGh5xK4A21cil7iiNWsPhBCY2Mb6VIJYv136F0ypAsI5WwMBdjdCKJJvi3wNXoTyaACj811w66WOL_dAF4xmHEeRTMzsOQc16AvTx2q_c-wDZbj3Hesvx3NJZpXZwreijsPBHgZGrhdaMkJyx6BJB4CJPLTVMn6Elbta4g0xiE2dc=s0-d-e1-ft>

Indianapolis - City Water Sewage Contaminating River - Pt. 2

http://www.bigberkeywaterfilters.com In this Part 2, they tested the river for e-Coli contamination and found le...

Reduced in numbers from washing and subsequently exposed to heat from cooking.. these coliform bacterial contaminants derived from human feces and animal feces are rendered inactive and dead.. Good for safe eating.  

http://femsre.oxfordjournals.org/content/femsre/25/5/513.full.pdf (Rozen and Belkin, 2001)


http://www.pjoes.com/pdf/9.3/215-222.pdf (Wcisko and Chrost, 2000)


Nelson
________________________________
nelson gerundo nelsongerundo@yahoo.com <shrimpy@yahoogroups.com>
To shrimp@yahoogroups.com

Thank you very much Durwood. I believe you..
Nelson
________________________________
nelson gerundo nelsongerundo@yahoo.com <shrimpy@yahoogroups.com>
To shrimp@yahoogroups.com

In this digital document, 'CR' means 'Consumer Report'
Consumer Reports: Tests Find 60 Percent of Frozen Shrimp Contaminated With Bacteria | Food Safety News

Consumer Reports: Tests Find 60 Percent of Frozen Shrimp Contaminated With ...

A new Consumer Reports (CR) study released Friday found that 60 percent of 342 samples of frozen shrimp it teste...
In the Philippines, 'CR' means Comfort Room..

Philippines: When someone says, "I need to go to the comfort room," what does that mean?

Philippines: When someone says, "I need to go to the comfort room,&quo...

Answer (1 of 11): Yea, "comfort room" (you can also say "C.R.") is pretty universal across t...

In the US, it is called a 'Toilet'
Officials compare bacteria levels in Gulf to toilet water

Officials compare bacteria levels in Gulf to toilet water

"Swimming in a toilet" -- that's what one fire department likens taking a dip in the water along o...

All throughout planet earth,  rivers, estuaries and finally the ocean act as the ultimate sink of sewage and runoff to dilute portions of these stinking juice while the beaches and mangroves sieves all kinds of solids including plastic, rubber, polystyrene and many unidentified nasty decomposing floating particulate solids.
The Ultimate Sink - The Daily Catch

The Ultimate Sink - The Daily Catch

In this episode of World Ocean Radio, host Peter Neill discusses the ocean as the ultimate sink. Not too long ag...

Offshore, some additional portion of these juice and waste containing fecal bacteria are even dump directly into the ocean only to be washed inshore.. 

http://libcloud.s3.amazonaws.com/93/ac/7/4988/Cruise_Ship_Report_Card_2014.pdf


These fecal juice containing bacteria are coming (a) INLAND from man-made sewer, garbage dump, human septic tank and animal farm runoff during floods.. and (b) OFFSHORE from all kinds of ships :)
Not just in East Asia or South Asia.. but in almost every human populated places on planet earth :)


Nelson
________________________________
nelson gerundo nelsongerundo@yahoo.com <shrimpy@yahoogroups.com>
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Jeff,

I find it pleasant of you not resorting to blemishing reports such as this. to somewhat subjectively taint the reputation of imported frozen shrimp most particularly those coming from South Asia and East Asia on the issue of antibiotics and bacteria e.g. Escherichia coli, Staphylococcus, Vibrio and MRSA
Consumer Reports: Tests Find 60 Percent of Frozen Shrimp Contaminated With Bacteria | Food Safety News

Consumer Reports: Tests Find 60 Percent of Frozen Shrimp Contaminated With ...

A new Consumer Reports (CR) study released Friday found that 60 percent of 342 samples of frozen shrimp it teste...

And when you stated: " Our model relies not on scare tactics of the bloated reports of atrocities that are used to stigmatise all imported shrimp" .. it is just very professional of you to consider both (1) imported outdoor farmed shrimp, (2) locally wild caught shrimp, and (2) RAS grown shrimp without showing any bias while you continue with your shrimp RAS venture.. as shrimp means livelihood to all people around the world engaged in all forms of shrimp production in the shrimp industry.